‘The Old World Is Dying.’ What Comes Next?

About The Episode

What happens when countries can no longer take the old international order for granted? Ishaan Tharoor of the Council on Foreign Relations and The New Yorker joins Leslie Vinjamuri to discuss how US allies and middle powers are adapting, what Canada’s changing relationship with the US could signal, and whether there’s any going back to the way things were. 

Key Takeaways

• The international order is in an uncertain transition. Ishaan Tharoor describes an “interregnum,” with the old order weakening and no clear replacement emerging. Trump is both accelerating that shift and reflecting deeper discontent with globalization.
• For many outside the West, the rules-based order never delivered on its promises. Yet Tharoor notes that even critics of its failures see international law and institutions as essential protections against a world where might makes right.
• Canada’s closer engagement with Europe shows how US pressure is changing allies’ calculations. Under Mark Carney, Ottawa is exploring deeper ties with the EU, although its integration with American supply chains limits the prospect of a clean break.
• Middle powers do not automatically share a common agenda. Tharoor cautions that their differing interests complicate Carney’s vision, while political shifts within Europe could weaken support for the partnerships Canada is pursuing.
• A new US administration would not necessarily restore the old American role. Tharoor argues that allies can no longer assume a return to familiar commitments, while the Iran war is pushing countries to rethink their security and energy dependencies.