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Post by TheMark on May 21, 2019 11:55:27 GMT
The Leftist propagandists have done their job well. From Gallup: Four in 10 Americans Embrace Some Form of Socialism. As Milton Friedman said (paraphrased), "Economic freedom is the basis for every other freedom. Without economic freedom we cannot have political or any other kind of freedom." Samuel Adams was very prophetic in these words: " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." I feel very sad that so many people want to make their own chains of slavery and worse yet, demand I wear them to. Socialism is a child's freedom. The Parent (State) decides you can have some ice cream. So they transport you to Baskin-Robbins and you can't choose. So The Parent gives you three choices. You don't have to worry about how you get there or how to pay for it. You magically get what someone else thinks you should have and you're happy with it.
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Post by sixofnine on May 21, 2019 13:24:39 GMT
The question is not whether or not we should have socialism. The question is what degree of socialism we should have and in which direction we should move the needle. We already have socialism:
- Social Security - Medicare - Medicaid - AFDC - No preexisting conditions, stay on parents' health insurance until age 26 - Subsidies to farmers - Bailing out Wall Street - Many other things that I can't think of at the moment
Fortunately, we're still a far cry from spending hours in line to buy centrally planned goods, but the battle against socialism was lost 80 years ago.
For clarity's sake, I think that single payer healthcare would be a disaster in our society. What I haven't heard enough of is some intelligent description of the forms of health care in other countries that many Americans think incorrectly is strictly single-payer. For example, Germany does not have a single-payer system. It has a multi-payer health care system paid for by a combination of statutory health insurance and private health insurance.
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Post by TheMark on May 22, 2019 0:41:12 GMT
I think we are edging toward a Sweden-type way of doing things (big safety net, big tax load) while ironically Sweden is getting away from their comprehensive social safety net.
I still think the greatest freedom is the Freedom to Starve. Nothing is more motivating than a growling stomach. We do need programs like this to help those in need (I was on SSDI when I first logged in here. I was on it for 10 years, 8 of that I was working as much as I could) but I am not as charitable to a young woman who aged out of high school without a diploma (or one she can't read) with two or three kids.
I also find it ironic Leftists are crying about how "young people aren't signing up for the ACA" because they are staying on their parent's plans. There is just no feedback loop with them. They do an idea that sounds good (instead of a good, sound idea) and ignore all lessons learned, positive or negative that results from their ideas.
A US single-payer system would have the efficiency of the VA and the compassion of the IRS.
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Post by Shinytop on May 23, 2019 13:01:36 GMT
Ya, nothing more motivating than a grouwling stomach in a 6 year old. Noting more motivating than a person trying to make a living but cannot switch jobs because they have an illness on the list that won't be covered by a new employer. Let's make all the poor children cry so their parents are motivated to reach higher. No, wait, the chances of increasing your lot in life has never been lower. Is that really what we want?
We are doing so good we don't want to change anything. I mean after all, we are still taking children from their parents at the border. We will show them this is not the country anybody want to come to!. The Commander in Chief still commits obstruction daily so no employees will provide proof of earlier obstruction. He daily breaks the law or directs its breaking about his tax records. What a time to be an American. We can take pride in a pussy grabbing, law breaking president and still get to separate children. And to top it off we get force victims of rape and incest to have their babies. I am so proud.
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Post by Leon on May 23, 2019 20:54:31 GMT
Lighten up, Francis.
(even though I agree with you there)
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Post by TheMark on May 24, 2019 12:18:37 GMT
Shiny,
I believe I said "help those in need," and a 6 year old who's parent won't fix food for the kid is the one that needs to go hungry. The 6 year-old can't change things, the parent can.
Blame government regulation for making health care so expensive. An insurance company that covers pre-existing conditions is like going to State Farm after a crash to open a car insurance policy to fix it.
The chances of making your lot better in life has never been better. It just requires hard work, something lacking in our youth.
I think we should shut the border. Everyone caught not at a port of entry gets kicked back over the border. We now have typhus, bubonic plague, measles and other diseases not seen here in years because these people come here with them. Obama's administration started the separation of "families" (and as we are seeing the children are not related to the adults) so if you yell "TRUMP!" about it, you really need to yell "OBAMA AND TRUMP!!!"
I don't know about obstruction, but there is no law requiring a president or candidate for the office that requires release of their tax records. It's a tradition, nothing more.
I don't like Trump as a person, but he has a spine and stands up to those who want to take advantage of us, internally and externally. More so than the last two presidents. Our economy is doing a lot better and more people are working, especially minorities.
As far as the abortion issue, that is being done at the state level (where it should be handled). I support New York having their abortion laws, just like I do Alabama. As an aside, since you seem up in arms over the preservation of life no matter the consequences of conception, I guess you are okay that a doctor kills a baby after it has been born because the "mother" said "KILL IT!" as he/she is coming out the birth canal?
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Post by Shinytop on May 24, 2019 15:59:48 GMT
Obama and Trump separated families? Just do a Google search. I think you will probably throw out most of the sources as being liberal but certainly not all. In a nutshell Obama's policy was when the children were endangered by the parent such as when parent had drugs and brought child along. Do you ever factcheck Trump?
This country is what it is because of immigration. Every wave was scorned by those already here and yet when allow to incorporate they have contributed. We are talking Irish, Italian, German, Japanese, Chinese, and Vietnamese. The current immigrants need to be treated as earlier immigrants. We need to approve those who we want but we need to approve more.
You are correct that there is no law, just precedence. I do, however, remembering Trump saying he would release them. But just another lie, I guess. Now when talking about emoluments tax records may well be needed. I think emoluments alone should nail this president to the wall.
Frankly, Mark, I am astounded at your last paragraph. I know of nobody who has ever campaigned for the right of a mother to tell the dr to kill it as it is emerging from the birth canal. Please cite something other than the stupidity that comes out of Trump's mouth during rallies.
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Post by Leon on May 24, 2019 21:34:03 GMT
True, except this time we're not targeting a select group. Perhaps you are focused on that because all of the media coverage of the "wall". Most of the immigration issues are stemming from work visas. There's definitely an element of Mexicans just walking through the borders.
Here's my question, if you are so pro immigration, why have borders, Rick? Open them up! If you think we have issues now with economy and medical coverage, I'd hate to tell you what will happen to what's left of it. Hell, you're in FL which will definitely get an impact.
By the way, and I realize there's many differences but anecdotally, we saw this influx of North Koreans in Far East when I was there. It destroyed anything Soviet Union had in place and realized their mistake of unfettered access to every service for the NK's. They just sat in clinics. Many overnight. Once Militzia moved them, there were more the next day. They ended up closing all the facilities because the doctors and staff just couldn't handle it nor wanted to.
See, I am focusing on the issue, not on the man, Trump, nor Obama. I could care less about each of them but I care how "globalization" -- a Liberal (Jewish) movement was a catastrophe for the American worker. The same worker that pays taxes that pay for medicare, medicaid, and Social Security. All of the services that you rely on today?
If I were to lean and align with anyone in this thread, it'd be Brian. As he stated we already have Socialism, a massive amount of it. Why do we want more of it? And why are we including foreigners in our service hand outs that cost billions of dollars?
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Post by TheMark on May 24, 2019 23:32:48 GMT
Obama and Trump separated families? Just do a Google search. I think you will probably throw out most of the sources as being liberal but certainly not all. In a nutshell Obama's policy was when the children were endangered by the parent such as when parent had drugs and brought child along. Do you ever factcheck Trump? This country is what it is because of immigration. Every wave was scorned by those already here and yet when allow to incorporate they have contributed. We are talking Irish, Italian, German, Japanese, Chinese, and Vietnamese. The current immigrants need to be treated as earlier immigrants. We need to approve those who we want but we need to approve more. You are correct that there is no law, just precedence. I do, however, remembering Trump saying he would release them. But just another lie, I guess. Now when talking about emoluments tax records may well be needed. I think emoluments alone should nail this president to the wall. Frankly, Mark, I am astounded at your last paragraph. I know of nobody who has ever campaigned for the right of a mother to tell the dr to kill it as it is emerging from the birth canal. Please cite something other than the stupidity that comes out of Trump's mouth during rallies. 1. The facilities where those "immigrants" grinding through the system are held are for adults. Let's say for a moment that there is a co-ed prison, minimum security. If a female inmate has a toddler, do you think it would be a good idea for the toddler to be in the general population? 2. The immigrants who came here before wanted to be Americans. I cite Leon and Allene as prime examples. They came here in accordance with the immigration laws, then went through the process to be a citizen. They remember the heritage of their home country, but put the US first. Do you really see that in these immigrants? Yes, many of them come here and work hard, but they do not want to become Americans. Many work and send the money they earn back to their families. When they have enough, they go home. They like the opportunities, they like the amenities, but in their hearts they still have fealty to their home country. I see the line at my local Kroger every Friday, 10-20 men lined up at the customer Service window, Western Union forms and cash in hand. 2-3 houses in my subdivision fly flags of other countries from their front porch. 3. I have the NY RHA law in another tab of my browser. I will study it over the weekend and give a full update Sunday or Monday.
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Post by allene on May 26, 2019 19:30:54 GMT
There are two kinds of immigration: legal and illegal, and the boundaries between the two have been intentionally blurred by politicians looking for votes. That really bugs me! Now we also have a refugee problem. I suspect some of these people from Central America were encouraged to go to the border by some organizations in the U.S. More politics! Some of them are criminals. Remember what happened in Germany several years ago? We wouldn't be doing these people a favor by just opening the gates to everybody. That's anarchy!
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Post by Leon on May 27, 2019 17:59:44 GMT
Democrats need more votes.
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Post by TheMark on May 28, 2019 15:21:00 GMT
Democrats need more votes. There is truth to that. I was researching the economic quintiles recently and I noticed in the 80's the middle class became smaller, as well as the lower classes. This was because they had moved up on the economic ladder. In recent years, the lowest quintile has exploded, fueled no doubt by these illegal immigrants. Could this be a new tactic to invoke Cloward-Piven? (that's the collapse of the government from the weight of having to support too many people on government assistance)
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Post by sixofnine on May 28, 2019 17:33:56 GMT
Democrats need more votes. There is truth to that. I was researching the economic quintiles recently and I noticed in the 80's the middle class became smaller, as well as the lower classes. This was because they had moved up on the economic ladder. In recent years, the lowest quintile has exploded, fueled no doubt by these illegal immigrants. Could this be a new tactic to invoke Cloward-Piven? (that's the collapse of the government from the weight of having to support too many people on government assistance) Except you can't use illegal immigrants to pull a Cloward-Piven, because they are ineligible for most federal public benefits. Even DACA migrants are ineligible.
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Post by TheMark on May 29, 2019 3:09:24 GMT
There is truth to that. I was researching the economic quintiles recently and I noticed in the 80's the middle class became smaller, as well as the lower classes. This was because they had moved up on the economic ladder. In recent years, the lowest quintile has exploded, fueled no doubt by these illegal immigrants. Could this be a new tactic to invoke Cloward-Piven? (that's the collapse of the government from the weight of having to support too many people on government assistance) Except you can't use illegal immigrants to pull a Cloward-Piven, because they are ineligible for most federal public benefits. Even DACA migrants are ineligible. Anchor babies are. And when the illegal immigrant mother applies for benefits for the citizen child, the household size is considered, regardless of citizenship status. Then you have the "serial immigration" with the anchor babies. Mama gets benefits because she's the guardian of the citizen baby, then they can apply for visas for the husband, siblings, and as far as they can push it until they hit their fourth cousin twice removed. Don't give me BS about "jobs Americans won't do." We won't do them for slave wages, but we will do them. Some years ago a meat packing plant that hired only illegals for the line work was busted by ICE. When the plant said "we need people to do the work," there was a line of citizens waiting to apply that ran down the block. I would happily stand hip deep in human waste and shovel it all day every day if it paid enough to support my family.
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Post by Leon on May 29, 2019 23:20:34 GMT
What Mark said on wages.
Of course Americans won't do them when Illegals are being exploited for ridiculous wages.
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